ESCHATOS MINISTRIES

Eschatos Ministries is dedicated to teaching biblical prophecy from a futurist, premillennial, prewrath perspective.

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Debates

Preterist Gary DeMar Turns Down Debate Invitation

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Refuting futurism is a big deal for preterist Gary DeMar. Much of his career has been devoted to such a task.

So in the past, I have challenged preterist Gary DeMar to a public moderated debate, and recently I invited him again.

He has turned down a debate.

I know some of you are disappointed. But I am not, because it speaks volumes to his preterist followers and others.

DeMar has debated pretribs in the past, particularly Thomas Ice. I have always said, though, that pretribulationists cannot adduce a cogent response to preterism, especially on Matthew 24 because they do not see the Olivet Discourse as applying to the church.

For those who were hoping to see a debate between a prewrather and preterist, at least with DeMar, that is not going to happen any time soon. The invitation remains open for him.

Gary DeMar will continue to post his “refutations” against futurism (where he seems to be stuck in 1972 citing Hal Lindsey every time!). But let the record show that he refuses to be challenged in a public, moderated debate with a prewrath futurist.

 

 

The Transcript of My 2015 Debate with Thomas Ice Is Now Available

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I want to thank Doug Eigsti who tediously transcribed my 2015 debate with Thomas Ice!

You can access the PDF transcript at this link where you will also find a link to the video or audio of the debate.

My debate with Thomas Ice was on this question: “THE CHURCH WILL FACE THE ANTICHRIST BEFORE THE RAPTURE.” I took the affirmative, while Dr. Ice took the denial.

 

 

A Brief Reply to Mike Stallard of Israel My Glory…

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https://israelmyglory.org/article/when-is-it/

I want to comment on this recent article by Dr. Mike Stallard who is the Director of International Ministries for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry.

This article above is from the recent January/February 2018 issue of Israel My Glory, which is an arm of the ministry The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry.

“Prewrath Rapture. Proponents of this position, a modified midtribulational view, believe the Rapture will occur sometime during the last half of the Tribulation”

I appreciate that Stallard did not define it by stating prewrath believes the rapture occurs “3/4th into the tribulation period.” Many pretrib teachers wrongly state this. He uses the accurate description of prewrath: “the Rapture will occur sometime during the last half of the Tribulation.” But here he uses the term “the tribulation,” which is a loaded pretrib term suggesting that this seven-year period is some monochromatic event, all characterized by God’s wrath. Prewrath believes that the Antichrist’s great tribulation begins at the midpoint and at some unknown period during the second half Jesus returns to rapture and resurrect his people; then on that same day the Day of the Lord’s wrath begins to be poured out on this world for the remaining part of the seven-year period.

I would also take issue with his statement, “a modified midtribulation view.” It is not. If anything prewrath is more “modified postrib” since it shares affinities with posttrib. The midtrib view is much more similar to pretrib, especially on the key issue of whether the Church will face the Antichrist. Pretrib and midtrib both believe they will be raptured before the Antichrist’s persecution.

“The pretrib and posttrib views are the most prominent among premillennialists.

This is true, but he fails to mention that prewrath is the fastest growing among all the views, with many pretrib, midtrib, and post-trib believers leaving their positions and affirming prewrath.

“If we assume the prewrath position, the seal judgments would precede the Day of the Lord. These judgments include war (second seal; Rev. 6:4) and seriously unsafe conditions. So this view also fails to handle the “peace and safety” statement.”

Not at all. Stallard does not address the prewrath response to this objection. Recently I did an episode on this very objection on The Biblical Prophecy Program.

I would like to propose an idea to Dr. Stallard. Let’s have a written debate in Israel My Glory between prewrath and pretrib. I actually think that your readers would appreciate this and benefit from this theological interaction. It would allow them to hear the other side from a prewrath exponent. And I am willing to post the entire written debate at my site here, so my prewrath readers can hear the other side as well. Shall we?

 

(VIDEO) Prewrath Is ‘Satanic’ Thinks Jan Markell, Pastor J.D. Farag, and Amir Tsarfati…

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Jan Markell | Olive Tree Ministries

In last weekend’s Understanding The Times Conferences 2017 hosted by Jan Markell’s Olive Tree Ministries, she had a meeting with two of the speakers that was video recorded. In the video below starting at the timestamp 6:45 you can hear them talk about how prewrath is “Satanic.”

Well, we cannot have any of that! Let’s help Jan Markell and her two speakers Pastor J.D. Farag and Amir Tsarfati refute the Satanic doctrine of prewrath, shall we? Jan, I suggest that you make room in next year’s annual conference in Minnesota for a public moderated debate. All three of you can take the pretrib position, and lonely me will take the prewrath position. Here would be a golden opportunity to refute the Satanic prewrath teaching in front of your 6,000 attendees. How can you pass this up? What say you? In fact, feel free to have your other speaker Mark Hitchcock join the three of you. That would make four against one…I don’t mind at all. On second thoughts, Mr. Hitchcock may not want to do this, because he has turned down an invitation to debate me in the past. But you sound pretty confident with your bluster in the video, especially calling prewrath “nonsense,” so surely you are up for the task. I am sure you care for the souls of your attendees so they are not led astray by prewrath, yes? So it would be safe for me to conclude that if you do not take me up on my challenge for a debate, then you either do not care for their souls or you know down deep inside that you are incompetent to refute prewrath publicly against an actual prewrath exponent. So then the third reasonable option is to engage in meaningful debate. Here is my contact info.

*Incidentally, I am encouraged by this, because I know for a fact that prewrath is making significant inroads into their pretrib circles (and otherwise they would not even acknowledge prewrath). And they do not like that. What easier way to refute something than to simply call it “Satanic”!  But the more they bloviate their rhetoric and not actually engage in meaningful discussion, Markell and her ilk will continue to experience consternation for watching traditional pretrib believers reject pretrib and come over to the prewrath camp. And that is a good thing!

 

(VIDEO) Audience Member Stumps Thomas Ice with Question at a Debate | Midwest Prophecy Conference, Calvary Chapel, Lafayette, IN

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There was a recent debate at the pretrib 2017 Midwest Prophecy Conference, Calvary Chapel, Lafayette, IN: “Is the return of the Lord imminent?” between Dr. David Lehman and Dr. Tommy Ice. Both debate participants are pretrib; the former, however, denies imminence and attempted to argue that you can deny imminence and affirm pretribulationism.

This is not a review of the debate, but my over all impression was that on Tommy’s argumentation, there was nothing unexpected, same stuff that he typically presents. As far as David Lehman’s argumentation, it was simply not good, even misrepresenting Tommy Ice and pretribulationism of the basic meaning of imminence. He was unprepared for the debate. Honestly, it was just a strange debate to watch.

I do however want to highlight a question that an audience member (Adam) asked Tommy Ice after the debate. You can hear him at 1:49:05 in the video below. Since Ice believes that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to the rapture, the audience member asked a brilliant question about its implications for taking this position and its logical consistency with the revelation of the Antichrist. Tommy Ice seemed stump for a moment, and then he gave a convoluted answer that did not actually address the logic of the audience member’s question.

By the way, I will be addressing Ice’s error when he claims that prōtos only refers to the apostasia and not the revelation of the man of lawlessness. The short simple answer is that in the Greek kai (and) is connecting both the apostasia and the revelation of the man of lawlessness together in relation to prōtos. They both will occur before the day of the Lord. Moreover, if Paul disconnected the two events he would had used the common epeita, tote (then), or some other marker when prōtos is used, rather than leave the statement about the revelation of the man of lawlessness hanging in midair without any connection to the day of the Lord! Pretribs who think that apostasia refers to the rapture avoid this grammatical and contextual point.

(In my own public debate with Thomas Ice during the cross-examination I challenged Ice to produce a single document in the Hellenistic Greek era where the noun apostasia ever means a physical departure. He finally admitted that he could not. I also have done four episodes on The Biblical Prophecy Program (Episodes 84–87) addressing the exegetical arguments that apostasia does not ever mean a “physical departure.”)

 

Do NOT Read Back 16th Century English Translations into Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to Mean a Physical Departure! – Ep. 87

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed

I responded to what is arguably the most desperate argument defending that the Greek noun apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to the rapture.

Those who argue for this, claim that because some early sixteenth English translations use the English term “departure” (e.g. Coverdale, Tyndale, Geneva Bible) that means the translators thought that the Greek word apostasia refers to the rapture.

I pointed out the lexical fallacies with such a position and simply the bad argumentation overall.

“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion [apostasia] comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.” (2 Thess 2:3)

The Greek Noun Apostasia Never Means a ‘Physical-Spatial Departure,’ e.g. the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Part 1) – Ep. 84

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed

“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the apostasia (apostasia) comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction” (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

In this episode I talked about how pretrib teachers such as Thomas Ice, H. Wayne House, Gary Stearman from Prophecy Watchers, Pastor Andy Woods, and others are doubling down on the desperate attempt to make Greek noun apostasia to refer to the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Links mentioned in the program:

New audio product in the e-Store

Response to Tommy Ice and Wayne House

My main article on the meaning of apostasia and 2 Thessalonians 2:3

 

BIAS ALERT: This person makes a GREAT point about The John Ankerberg Show | Prewrath Rapture

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The John Ankerberg Show has been known for having different perspectives represented by different proponents on a topic.

However, when it comes to one particular topic, the rapture, Ankerberg will only have pretrib guests on this show. Can anyone say…painfully biased? He does not have a prewrather, posttribber, or a preterist on his show. He has turned his show into a pretrib safe space.

That is unfortunate, because it hurts his credibility, and worse it censors his viewers from hearing meaningful dialogue and interaction from other perspectives on this topic, and instead is filtered through one biased view.

Recently, he had a panel discussion on the rapture discussing the different positions. All three guests on his panel were…can you guess?…pretribulational! Will he now invite three prewrath guests to teach on prewrath for an entire show? I think you know the answer to that.

Who knows maybe he will change his mind and see his inconsistency on this particular topic. You can always write him and encourage him to have myself or another prewrath teacher on his show to interact with a pretrib teacher.

 

A Reply to Billy Crone’s Defamation Against Christians Who Love Jews and Affirm a Future Israel

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Billy Crone | Get a Life Ministries | Photo: vimeo.com/191178874

“For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.” (2 Cor 2:17)

Notice the last statement in the verse above: “we speak in Christ in the sight of God.” Evidently, this statement does not register with Crone, since recently he flippantly defamed countless believers who affirm the prewrath position and love Jews by falsely calling them anti-Semites and replacement theologians for…get this…believing that the Church will enter into the seven-year period. See the video documentation below.

Billy Crone is defaming countless non-pretrib Christians by falsely attributing the following two beliefs to them:

Anti-Semitism is “hostility to or prejudice against Jews.”

Replacement Theology is “the Church has replaced Israel and thereby Israel has no future plan in God’s program.”

If you are not a pre-tribber as Crone is, you are an anti-Semite, according to his twisted logic.

Never mind the fact that one of the main pillars of prewrath eschatology is affirming God’s unconditional promise to Israel, a love for Israel that prewrath has consistently defended from its inception.

Never mind the fact that we have put on conferences that specifically argue against replacement theology and anti-Semitism, including having keynote speaker and prewrather Barry Horner who has written the book: Future Israel: Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged.

Never mind the fact that I am co-editing (and soon to be announced) the most extensive, scholarly book to have ever been published responding specifically to Supersessionism of Israel’s future (aka Replacement Theology) by twenty-five leading scholars.

Never mind the fact that Eschatos Ministries, the Jewish ministry Zions Hope Ministries, Sign Ministries, and a host of other prewrath ministries have been on the forefront of refuting anti-Semitism and Replacement Theology. Evidently, Joel Richardson is also an anti-Semite and replacement theologian according to Billy Crone’s twisted logic!

And speaking of the forefront of combating anti-Semitism and Replacement Theology, according to Crone’s twisted and defamatory logic the Jewish Messianic apologist Michael Brown must be anti-Semitic and a replacement theologian because he is posttrib!

And never mind the fact that out here in New Jersey with one of the highest concentration of Jews in the country I witness personally to Jews. Has Crone ever stepped into a synagogue and witnessed to Jews including the Rabbi? If I am an “anti-Semite” according to Crone why on earth would I be loving Jews and sharing the Gospel with him? We are never told by him.

Crone’s indefensible and irresponsible accusation should be retracted if he is concerned about “speaking in Christ in the sight of God.”

I could turn Crone’s twisted logic against him and say that he is anti-Semitic and a replacement theologian since as a prettribber he does not believe that God is working with Israel at this very time during the Church age. But I am not going to stoop to such bottom-of-the barrel cheap, defamatory, flawed reasoning, because I want to “speak in Christ in the sight of God.”

Pretribulational teachers such as Crone get away with this stuff quite a bit. I ignore most of it, but at times they need to be called on it.

Where is this all coming from? I have said before that these pretrib teachers and pretrib TV hosts know that prewrath is making major inroads into their circles. They do not like this. So it is easier to misrepresent prewrath and make desperate attacks against a position using skewed reasoning while thinking he has the authority to redefine terms on the whim such as “anti-Semitism” and “Replacement theology” that utterly lack any semblance to their genuine meanings.

Crone makes up new meanings of these weighty and somber terms to fit his pretrib agenda and demonize other positions such as prewrath—and consequently he drains the true meanings of the ugliness of anti-Semitism and Replacement Theology for his petty pretrib motives, eclipsing them with his idiosyncratic, agenda-laden usage. It’s like the Social Justice Warrior who cries “racism” every other breath, emptying out the true and serious meaning of racism.

Is it any wonder why pretribs are leaving in droves and affirming other eschatological positions such as prewrath? This type of reasoning (actually an attack) is unbecoming of a Christian. It may play well with non-Berean pretrib types, but not thinking, Christ-loving believers who love Jews, praying and loving them to the true Messiah: Jesus of Nazareth.

 

Shameful Pretrib Billy Crone Lies by Saying Prewrath Promotes Anti-Semitism

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Billy Crone continues to misrepresent and lie about the prewrath position. He has been challenged to defend his views and statements publically in a debate, but refuses to do so. He knows he cannot do it. I explain below why pretribs are having these desperate and ungodly reactions to prewrath.

Now Crone has taken his deception to a new level by defaming the prewrath position by stating that it and other views who think the church will enter into the 70th week are promoting “anti-Semitism.” That is first rank twisted logic.

Mr. Crone, you need to retract your statements on claiming that prewrath promotes anti-Semitism. That is such an ignorant and outlandish slanderous claim. Retract or defend them publically in a debate.

In the video below he makes a shot-gun tirade against prewrath with hackneyed statements and misrepresentation. Among his many easily-refuted claims, he even commits the blundered and fallacious claim that the “aorist is the past tense”! Mr. Crone, temporal reference is not part of the meaning of a verb. Context gives us time, not the tense-form. This has been so thoroughly refuted in Greek linguistics for decades.

You are not able to defend that and all of your other blusterous claims against prewrath in a public moderated debate. You can make those in your safe space with the host Gary Stearman. But being challenged under cross-examination is another matter.  

I realize that pretrib circles such as Prophecy Watchers and other pretrib ministries are getting worried that prewrath is making major inroads. I am encouraged at that, and it makes sense to see this desperate reaction toward prewrath: Lie, distort, defame prewrath teaching. But defending your views biblically is what Christ would want us to do, yes?

Copyright © 2018 by Alan Kurschner.